Monoposto Racing Forum

Being one of the older members off the club the fact i no nothing of computers this must show that im very passionate about this matter.
Firstly I must admit i have a vested interest in this matter but im extremely disappointed after Oulton Park meeting to find that all the competitors in ours and some other classes were only awarded less than normal points due to the lack of support from other competitors.
Oulton was an expensive single header meeting and up north so not many people entered as there were only 5 in our class (1800) we got less points, this is apparently due to the Nova awards.
The nova series should not affect championship points tables as it has nothing to do with a class championship at all.
All the drivers that supported the club, in my opinion, have been penalised for their support to the club.
Now at Brands Hatch we have an entry of 17 cars as its down south and the GP circuit so we're back up to full points.
Names which i have never seen and unlikely to see again are crawling from the wood work and i will no doubt be worse placed than usual as they will be faster than me, meaning the last but great position i got at Oulton would have made a great influx of points for my championship standing, especially as I'm a consistent competitor and member of the club.
As the treasurer commented on the poor entry, only 14 starters in the 1800/1600/moto race, we could see a similar entry list at Cadwell, as its the last race of the season and also, except for a few members, its a long long treck to cadwell.
This subject came up years ago when we used to have an overall champion as well as class champions and less points were awarded for that but class championship points were left alone a win was a win like it is now and points should be awarded for merit not whether your rivals could be bothered to show their support to the clubs finances.
I understand after contacting our class rep that nothing can be done for this year and that I accept but this needs to be addressed and fixed for future seasons.

Jock Sergison

The other argument is if there is only 2 cars in your class, or even just one, is it fair to receive the full 16 points for a 15 minute pootle around the countryside?

Lots of championships have reduced scores for low grids, and some for a long time. F3 Cup have three sets of points - full points, half points and quarter points depending on how many class entrants they have.

Personally i agree with Jock , in CLUB racing , the time and expense commitment to enter should not be compromised by the entrant numbers , a matter beyond your control . The rules at present also enable a single competitor to withdraw and influence the points of all of his/her championship rivals .................

Its not really another way to look at it Andrew as its irrelevant whether there is one car or not in a class perspective, if one guy shows up and pootles round he is the winner regardless of whether his rivals fell off or like tony says did not turn up due to the fact he only had to get 3 points to win the championship and with only 5 entrants his rival could get 10 for the win and still finish second in the championship. Why would he go to the expense of turning up when he can win sat at home? It is an opportunity for people to be vindictive in order to triumph in what is at the end of the day a club championship.
What club f3 , f1 or banger racing do has no relevance to us, this is Monoposto and club racing and we should not be penalising supportive members of our club because some less supportive members or guests dont turn up.
The multi class nova awards should most definately be awarded lower points for lower entries as its the only fair way to do it to make sure a one car class does not win the awards for being the champion of nothing and reaping the benefits over a true battling champion who will then finish second to him.
This matter to me seems a no brainer really as far as a class win goes its a class win and no one loses apart from the guy who did not show up to the race but if you desire the championship win you should at least enter, which will also help grids and the clubs finances.

Jock

Whilst I can appreciate your position, the regulation in question is now approaching two seasons old and its the first forum complaint I can remember. Mono2000 drivers lost points last year due to it, and it also affected Mono 1600 and 1000 classes last year. Mono1400 was on the low points score all season last year, so that cancels itself out.

I think the real problem with Oulton this year was the last of a fairly intensive section of the calendar - the non-championship Mallory meeting, Spa-Francorchamps (also non-championship), followed by Snetterton double header and then Oulton Park. I suspect people felt that the lure of Spa was worth more to them than a single afternoon at Oulton Park. Everyones budget, both monetary and goodwill from family has been stretched.

Oulton currently reserve Sunday racing for a select few meetings - BTCC, The Gold Cup and a couple of bike meetings, but most are single header meetings. A double header meeting would be more attractive, but at Oulton is unlikely to happen

Yes someone could withdraw deliberately to put others on the lower points system, but then again if someones had some bad luck in testing or practise and they look like being a non-starter, extra effort from other class members may get them out and then everyone gets the full points rather than dietPoints(tm)

I'm sure the committee have taken note. Please note I've taken a deliberate opposite stance in order to further discussion!

As a very new competitor, and running an 1800, you will be afforded another competitor to race with. All I ask is please dont hit me when you lap me for the fifth time. Next season, you can count two of us as my father also joins the fray in the 1800 class. We will be attending most, if not all, mono races so as long as we dont bin it in practise then in 2013 you will always have 2 more cars on the circuit.

Living only 30 minutes from Outlon Park, I would rather drive on to Anglesey. The circuit is much more fun with lovely long run offs. Having driven all combinations on the Anglesey circruit I can say it is much more fun than Outlon and the garages are brill.

Pete

to be fair you can only race who ever turns up, if you can't be bothered or want to drop the round then why should the one's that turn up, spend the time and money only get half points? doesn't matter what the sport is, if the grid is reduced the points should remain the same after all, you don't do half the qualifying or half the race and it's not half the money so why half the rewards?

One day at Oulton IS worth the visit. Cadwell versus Anglesey, that may be a different story.

From the clubs perspective, surely the numbers at Cadwell would only improve if full points were there to play for and more championship positions were at stake. It would also make the final races more interesting .

As Andrew stated , no doubt the comments have been noted , but please do not resort to the points system adopted in the F3 cup where the two championship leaders never actually race each other !!

A few comments on this thread - which raises some interesting points (oops)

First - Whatever views people have on the current points system, it isn't going to change for this season. To do that the MSA would certainly require the Club to have the written agreement of every registered Championship contender, and I do not believe this would be achieveable even if the Club wanted to make a change.

Second - the current points system with a low-points for low-numbers formula was devised for two reasons. For Nova competitors it avoids competitors in small classes having a systematic advantage over competitors in busy classes. The current points system also includes the principle that a win in a busy class is "worth" more in Championship point terms than a win if the class has low numbers. For example beating 12 other competitors is assumed to be harder than beating 3 other competitors. This of course can be argued with ("a win is win") and also doesn't take into account the depth of talent in the field and the quality of the racing. At Oulton the Mono 1800 guys enjoyed a great race for the class positions even though the class numbers were low. However if you don't have a low-points system for low-numbers you are saying for example that 6 wins against (say) 3 competitors are worth more in Championship terms than 5 wins against (say) 12 competitors. But the low-number low-point system is more contentious and complex if class numbers happen to vary just above/just below the full point thresh-hold from event to event.

Third - I can't identify any case over the last two years of a Mono competitor deliberately not entering or withdrawing in order to bring a class into the low-points zone. It might be a theoretical possibility, but to do this effectively you would have to be very good at forecasting entry numbers - better than I am anyway.

Fourth - An issue that is difficult to tackle is that of the less-regular competitor who takes points from a regular, possibly at a critical point in the Championship. I don't think there is a cure for this - and I have seen this one done deliberately. It's very important that we get as many people racing with us as possible and it would not be in the Club's interests to refuse entries or deny points to less-regular registered competitors, simply because they might beat the regulars; even if the MSA would allow us to do this which I doubt.

Finally - I'm sure that the Club will look closely at the points system for next year. However there is no perfect solution. For example if you want to favour the regulars you would have something like 10-9-8-7 etc with all rounds to count. Miss one round and it's very hard to catch up. If you want to favour the quick guys even if they don't score every time then it's 25-18-15-12 with 3 rounds dropped. And so on. We could of course have separate scoring systems for Class points and for the Nova competitors - and we could also have a system which would enable us to have an overall Mono Champion if we wished (as in the past).

The points system the Club should use is certainly a subject for real debate, and for change in future if that's the right thing to do for the Club as a whole. However please bear in mind that there are many options; but none will suit all aspirations, circumstances, and eventualities.

Simon Davey
St Cross Electronics Mono Championship Co-ordinator

Summed up very nicely Simon.
I think there are a couple of points worth noting though.
Firstly the Nova awards. Rather than less points for the competitor in a small race I think an equation which awarded the correct points then multiplied by the number of guys in the class would make it fair. That way the boy who comes fifth in a race of twenty would get fractionally more points then another guy who finished fifth in a class of eighteen.
In the 1600 class we have often suffered from low points. I think it's unfair personally because generally the top four or five in the class are always there so the low numbers don't make any difference to the race at the front.
Whilst we are talking about the points another emotive subject is the awarding of championship points to guests. I frankly don't agree with this. There is one train of thought that it could encourage guests to become Mono members. If that is the case i'm all for it. But I think the way to do it is award the points and if they haven't joined the club within a month then the points are reallocated.
I don't believe that agreement on this subject can be reached on the forum and would therefore suggest that it be added to the agenda of the AGM. The system cannot be changed for this season. The only question I have is that will any decision made at the AGM be to late for next season. If that is the case then maybe we could have a quick meeting at Brands.

Reallocating points probably isn't allowed, but even it was it could change the points tables, and change the way people drive - you go to a meeting thinking you need to take a few risks to beat driver X and have a crash, only to find that a week later the points have changed and you could have driven much more casually...

With drivers coming and going throughout a season, I don't think there is a flawless system. In F3 Cup, my class has been on full points all year, but Chris Dittman has recently been only getting half or quarter points. It's actually worked out okay, because the presence of drivers doing one or two meetings in my class have taken points off me, whilst Chris's has been doing well in a smaller class. I doubt that'll continue all year though. Just have to do the best you can under the current rules and see where you end up. It'd be frustrating to lose the championship due to one-off entries skewing the points, but it'd be a hollow victory if half points hamper the smaller class.

Ideally, regardless of points systems, the best driver over the year deserves to win. I guess we'll all find out if that occurs in our respective championships and classes over the next few weeks/months!

Further to my previous post.
To avoid confusion, regarding the Nova points system, I suggested that normal points should be multiplied by the number of starters. What I meant was that some calculation could be instituted where a driver finishing seventh in a big grid race would get more points then a driver finishing seventh in a smaller grid.
So if a driver finishes 5th in a 1600 grid of 7 then he would get 8 points multiplied by the 7 which gives 56 then divide by 5 to give a final points tally of 11.2.
!0th in the 2 litre field of 20 would give 3 x 20 = 60 divided by 5 = 12.
7th in 1800 field of 12 would be 6 x 12 = 72 divided by 5 =14.4
A system on this nature would be fairer and not effect the normal championships.

I also suggested giving points to guests for a month only until they joined otherwise points would be reallocated. This would only need to work for the first 60% of the season as any guest starting at this late stage would find it almost impossible to collect enough points to obtain any reasonable championship position.

[quote="tristancliffe"]
With drivers coming and going throughout a season, I don't think there is a flawless system. In F3 Cup, my class has been on full points all year, but Chris Dittman has recently been only getting half or quarter points. It's actually worked out okay, because the presence of drivers doing one or two meetings in my class have taken points off me, whilst Chris's has been doing well in a smaller class. I doubt that'll continue all year though. Just have to do the best you can under the current rules and see where you end up. It'd be frustrating to lose the championship due to one-off entries skewing the points, but it'd be a hollow victory if half points hamper the smaller class. quote]

I agree, there will always be some issues in a scoring system that disadvantage some people and not others but I don't F3 Cup is a like for like comparision.

The impact of full, half and quarter points in F3 Cup is an issue because individuals' class scores are transferred into an overall championship table. And it causes 'discrepancies' to occur. Linton Stutely has won 66% of the races he has entered outright, nearly half of all F3 cup races this year and at this stage in proceedings has won 4 times more races than any other regular F3 Cup competitor....yet is only 4th in the table 33.5 points off top due to fluctuating entries in his class. If an overall table, devoid of class structure, was contructed my guess is he would be leading or very close to the top.

I think Jock's point, in a championship where the winner is from a single class only, as is the case with Mono class champions, is why have a scoring system that can potentially introduce a scenario like above? Ok the reasons outlined by Jock in his particular case are different but the outcome is effectively the same. If you are only ever competing against people in your own class why introduce variables, beyond simply beating a competitor on the track, which could influence the outcome of a championship order.

MH

Shakeyfinch wrote:

tristancliffe wrote: With drivers coming and going throughout a season, I don't think there is a flawless system. In F3 Cup, my class has been on full points all year, but Chris Dittman has recently been only getting half or quarter points. It's actually worked out okay, because the presence of drivers doing one or two meetings in my class have taken points off me, whilst Chris's has been doing well in a smaller class. I doubt that'll continue all year though. Just have to do the best you can under the current rules and see where you end up. It'd be frustrating to lose the championship due to one-off entries skewing the points, but it'd be a hollow victory if half points hamper the smaller class. quote]

I agree, there will always be some issues in a scoring system that disadvantage some people and not others but I don't F3 Cup is a like for like comparision.

The impact of full, half and quarter points in F3 Cup is an issue because individuals' class scores are transferred into an overall championship table. And it causes 'discrepancies' to occur. Linton Stutely has won 66% of the races he has entered outright, nearly half of all F3 cup races this year and at this stage in proceedings has won 4 times more races than any other regular F3 Cup competitor....yet is only 4th in the table 33.5 points off top due to fluctuating entries in his class. If an overall table, devoid of class structure, was contructed my guess is he would be leading or very close to the top.

I think Jock's point, in a championship where the winner is from a single class only, as is the case with Mono class champions, is why have a scoring system that can potentially introduce a scenario like above? Ok the reasons outlined by Jock in his particular case are different but the outcome is effectively the same. If you are only ever competing against people in your own class why introduce variables, beyond simply beating a competitor on the track, which could influence the outcome of a championship order.

MH

With regards the first part, I've quickly (and not necessarily accurately) given full class points to every driver, which meant re-awarding points to Trophy and Masters drivers. Taking the total, Mr Dittman is 1st, I'm 2nd, James Ledamun is 3rd, Linton is 4th and you are 5th. If I drop the 3 worst scores so far, then it's Ledamun, Dittman, Linton, Me, You. Whilst part of me would love to see James Ledamun win the overall championship, it won't happen with the current points system. And as you say, the F3 Cup is different because there is an overall champion, so winning in a class of 2 isn't as much of an achievement as winning in a class of 15, BUT most of the small-class wins have also been outright wins. It's a tricky business this...

You can't have two points systems - class points taken from class results, and overall championship taken from overall results - because it would massively discourage the Masters entries. But as the Masters class has only had two cars at any given time, the current system of awarding quarter points isn't helping them either. But is it right to come up with a rules system that would put them out of contention even if there were 5 regular Masters starters?

Partial points for small classes has been around in many championships for years, and it's only an issue if you are disadvantaged by it!

Personally I think the Mono system works quite well overall. Occasionally it'll throw a spanner in the works for one or two drivers, but in the main I think it sorts itself out.

To steal and modify part of the Olympic creed...
The most important thing in Monoposto/F3 Cup is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well.


Edit: Very quickly done a championship table based on the overall finishing positions, regardless of class. In that system, Linton has a 20 point lead (36 with 3 dropped), Me, Dittman, Harrison, Hamilton-Smith, Ussi, Needham, Lynn... Dropping 3 rounds changes that to Linton, Dittman, Me, Hamilton-Smith, Harrison and Ussi, Needham, Lynn. I don't know which is the best system for the overall champion out of the existing one, full points in each class regardless of starter numbers, or actual finishing positions overall. My opinion will probably be swayed by the outcome of each method in October