GRID SIZES

[Paperman]

Hi everyone

Obviously given the relative grid sizes we did consider whether to move a class to join the 2 litre cars at Snetterton. In my view we should only do this if it increases the enjoyment of the drivers and/or enables us to take more entries, without a negative impact on safety. I'm not impressed in this instance by arguments that it "makes a better spectacle".

One car is entered in both 1800 and 2000 classes, so combining these would loose an entry. We do not want to do this if it can be avoided, and it can't be seen as fair to the entrant concerned. I consulted with the Mono 1600 rep on whether to move the 1600 class, and there was no enthusiasm for doing this if it could be avoided, which I can understand having raced in 1600s myself. In my view (contrary to OFARC's opinion - and yes, I am serious) there is a safety draw-back in moving the 1000 cars alongside the 2 litres. They do lap at around the sames times, so wouldn't easily get away from each other; but in my experience the 1000s can turn-in faster and later, and they are significantly lighter. This could be a recipe for unpleasant accidents which can be avoided in this instance. I for one do not want to be in the paddock at Snetterton watching MRC members picking up a pile of bits, or worse, having put on a great show for the spectators which ended up with a 560 Kg Dallara/Ralt/etc and a 400 Kg Jedi/JKS/etc touching wheels when they turned into Riches carrying a speed differential into the apex - if we can avoid this risk.

And yes - the 1000's do race with the 1800s and 1600s, but because the 1000s are generally significantly quicker round the lap these combinations of cars do not often continue to contest corners, they pass and draw apart. There is a potential lapping hazard, but that's not uncommon, even in single-class races.

We do not (quite) have a full grid for the Mono 1800/1600/1400/1000 race, so we do not need to move a class on this occasion.

However, if people would really like us to take future opportunities to move one of the 1800/1600/1400/1000 classes alongside the 2 litre cars (or otherwise), then please come and talk to me about it - I'll be at Snetterton, listening hard.

Simon Davey

[Shakeyfinch]

Talk about going over old ground.

I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons why bike engined cars do not race with the 2000 cars is because many of the drivers of bike engined cars (or at least the vocal ones) don't want to on the grounds of safety - they don't fancy getting into contact at speed with a carbon fibre Dallara weighing over 100 kg's more.

Having raced with bike engined cars a few times when I raced 2000's i'd say its actually less fun when they are on the track together. Yes the lap times are similar, but to say they are not significantly different in how they deliver that lap is rubbish. The 2000 cars get in the way of the Jedi's down the straights and the Jedi's get in the way round the corners. Sooner or later they will run into each other and you're back to the reservations raised in my first point.

Nothing is perfect but I think putting the bike engine cars with the 2000's would be a step backwards - but that is only my opinion and with the law of averages likely to offend half the people on this forum!

MH

[AndyY]

IIRC, one of the intentions behind the new 1400 class was that conventional Formula Chassis could be converted to run bike engines and still race competitively despite them being heavier than the Jedi/ Speads/ OMS etc. This means that there is the possibility of a carbon tubbed, but bike engined, F3 chassis running alongside the aforementioned Jedis etc anyway. OK, they are lighter than the 2000 cars but its still a significant lump of chassis. If the converted chassis 1400s can run with the 1000s then I don't see why the bike engined cars can't run with the 2000's. The safety argument regarding contact between different types of chassis seems now to be negated.

[TFR]

And we have all been running together at SPA for the last 6 or 7 years
GF

[ofarc]

My Jedi weighs 440 kg, I wish it weighed the 400 it keeps being quoted at.

[phuston]

Brief thoughts:

for several years both 2000s and 1000/1400s have been numbered 0-50. The intention is that they race apart.

The MRC exists to provide enjoyment to competitors not spectacle for spectators. Being the fastest race in CSCC's programme, we do provide the latter, but this is a secondary consideration. Let F1 juggle things in an attempt to entertain spectators.

if a 1000 is racing at 40kg over its weight limit, why does it not add 10kg ballast and race on the 1400 limit?

Spa is vast, what works at Spa may not work at Mallory or Cadwell!

[samier]

Why are the bike engined cars allowed to run at a silly weight of sub 400 kgs? The JKS cars weight in at 320 kgs looking at the spec on their website. Even with a 80kg driver thats 400. Most other cars are over 500 kgs in weight, 1600's, 1800's 2000's!

All this about carbon car hitting them is rubbish! If a 1600 or 1800 car hits one you will have similar damage.

Best to run these lightweight cars in a class of their own, or make make them add lead to bring the weight up to 520 kg or so.

As for the speed differential its huge, acceleration and braking performance. My car was involved in a smash at castle Combe back in 2007 (previous owner) where 2 cars who were much quicker over took either side of quarry corner. It eneded in damage for all 3 cars.

Yes between novices and established racer you have a laptime difference, but performance in straighline and acceleration and braking is not that far off.

People can tell me to f$%* off on the basis I only did one race last year, but I am just making my point.

[tristancliffe]

Why are the bike engined cars allowed to run at a silly weight of sub 400 kgs? The JKS cars weight in at 320 kgs looking at the spec on their website. Even with a 80kg driver thats 400. Most other cars are over 500 kgs in weight, 1600's, 1800's 2000's!

Because bike engined cars are lighter. As they race in their own class they can have different weights. Remember - they are not directly competing against the 1600/1800/2000 classes even if they share grids.

All this about carbon car hitting them is rubbish! If a 1600 or 1800 car hits one you will have similar damage.

The learned opinion of some is that a carbon monocoque acts like a hot knife through butter when it meets a spaceframe car in a T-bone accident. The fear is that more drivers end up in a similar situation to Mr Zanardi or worse.

Best to run these lightweight cars in a class of their own, or make make them add lead to bring the weight up to 520 kg or so.

They ARE in a class of their own. Which bit of the class structure within Monoposto would you like me/us to clarify?

As for the speed differential its huge, acceleration and braking performance. My car was involved in a smash at castle Combe back in 2007 (previous owner) where 2 cars who were much quicker over took either side of quarry corner. It eneded in damage for all 3 cars.

I happened to watch that crash first hand! But it's not really huge, it's only a few mph actually. But touching wheels, which is what happened in that accident, results in nasty accidents even with zero speed differential. But when lapping backmarkers (and I speak from experience sadly) the onus is on both the lapper and the lappee to not do anything silly. Occasionally circumstance goes against that, but in the main I think Mono are very polite when it comes to lapping.

Yes between novices and established racer you have a laptime difference, but performance in straighline and acceleration and braking is not that far off.

Sorry, what? Oh I see. The laptime differences come from somewhere, and it's rarely in pure straight line performance or acceleration out of a corner. Therefore the majority of the difference between those at the back of the class and those at the front occurs under braking and in the corners, and must take the form of a speed differential. It only takes a couple of mph in each corner to be several seconds per lap slower.

People can tell me to f$%* off on the basis I only did one race last year, but I am just making my point.

Do not base the speed differential on your outing at Mallory - you were so much slower than the other cars on track that you did not get a valid idea of how it is. With a few more miles under your belt you'll realise it's not quite as scary as you make it out to be.

[samier]

Because bike engined cars are lighter. As they race in their own class they can have different weights. Remember - they are not directly competing against the 1600/1800/2000 classes even if they share grids.

Yes I know I am not competeing directly against them!


The learned opinion of some is that a carbon monocoque acts like a hot knife through butter when it meets a spaceframe car in a T-bone accident. The fear is that more drivers end up in a similar situation to Mr Zanardi or worse.

A car weighing 535 kgs going into the side of a Jedi will do some major damage, yes a carbon nosed car will do more!


They ARE in a class of their own. Which bit of the class structure within Monoposto would you like me/us to clarify?

I dont want you to clarify anything!


I happened to watch that crash first hand! But it's not really huge, it's only a few mph actually. But touching wheels, which is what happened in that accident, results in nasty accidents even with zero speed differential. But when lapping backmarkers (and I speak from experience sadly) the onus is on both the lapper and the lappee to not do anything silly. Occasionally circumstance goes against that, but in the main I think Mono are very polite when it comes to lapping.

Accidents do happen, but as I understand (speaking to the driver, who agreed about the bike engied cars being so much quicker) they closed up on the driver very quickly, misjudged the overtaking and ended up tangling wheels. Each person will have a different view on it, so please drop your view of authority! You dont have to be right all the time!


Sorry, what? Oh I see. The laptime differences come from somewhere, and it's rarely in pure straight line performance or acceleration out of a corner. Therefore the majority of the difference between those at the back of the class and those at the front occurs under braking and in the corners, and must take the form of a speed differential. It only takes a couple of mph in each corner to be several seconds per lap slower.

Yes slower corners make the big difference to laptimes, so accidents are more likely to happen into braking zones as the cars close in on the slower cars much faster than if the cars are of a similar class.


Do not base the speed differential on your outing at Mallory - you were so much slower than the other cars on track that you did not get a valid idea of how it is. With a few more miles under your belt you'll realise it's not quite as scary as you make it out to be.

If I was scared I would not bother, I would sit at home!

[TFR]

This thread is great fun, many thanks to Dax for starting it off,there is nothing like a good wind up,(whatever happened to the corpulent New Zealander), havent had such a good laugh since Braggy stuffed his shirt in the loudspeaker, just hope the racing is as much fun at the weekend.
GF

[samier]

We need a few more characters on here to make it more lively.. wasnt Phill Moore banned?

[ofarc]

It has gone crazy hasnt it????? I only wanted to point out that one grid was small and the other was getting too close to being full.

No need to ban me; I shall abstain from posting again.

Lets have a great weekend of racing at Snet and hope the weather stays fine.

[Shakeyfinch]

We need a few more characters on here to make it more lively.. wasnt Phill Moore banned?

Is the extra 'l' in his name one of said extra characters?!

[Pigpen]

I would love to see the bike engined cars race with the 2 litres .. or at least in a different class to the 1600's ... or better still a different circuit.
and I'm not even racing anymore.

[GP]

An issue no one has ever mentioned is the fact that 1600 compettitors. lose at least two laps track time to bike engined cars each practace session and each race entered. Over a season the equivalant of at least a whole race meeting is being lost to the 1600 entrants. No arguement stands whatsoever in respect of 2000 cars and the danger of mixing bike engined cars together. my reason for this the speed diferential is vertually NON EXISTANT. Also not many moons ago 2000 cars and monokent [ standard ff 1600 motors ] ran in the same races vertually all the time. Both lots of compettitors spend to much time looking out for each other.1800 should run with 1600 and 2000/bikes should run together...far safer...far fairer..far better for spectators..END OF SUBJECT..NO ARGUEMENT..PERIOD