It's interesting (and reassuring) to see that there are quite a few people who share the same views on the inclusion of FR2000 cars and their suitability for Monoposto. As AndyY has noted, the prinicple / concept is similar to what would have been applied when FVauxhall cars were given a home to race alongside older pre-93 F3 cars.
I really hope that the decision to exclude FR2000 cars next season can be reviewed and reversed for all of the reasons highlighted so far.
Engine Regulations
Re: Engine Regulations
I completely agree Andy. FRs are unique in that they occupy a space between the older spaceframe cars and the Dallaras, and that applies whether you're looking at cost, safety, or room for taller drivers, or all three. They manage this with a road standard engine and ready availability of parts and expertise.
A separate class would bury the much talked about issues with performance relative to the Dallaras, yes. We could probably even remove the restrictors to produce circa 200bhp and I suspect that a top Dallara would still be faster.
As you rightly say Andy, 40mm ride height is a negative for many, but as far as I understand it, Monoposto have no choice with regard to that. My shakedown test last month was at the car's designed ride height (~25mm) and my next test probably will be too, because I want to get back up to speed and get used to the car with a known and proven setup before I start fiddling with it; 'change one thing at a time' - a lesson learnt through bitter experience!
A separate class would bury the much talked about issues with performance relative to the Dallaras, yes. We could probably even remove the restrictors to produce circa 200bhp and I suspect that a top Dallara would still be faster.
As you rightly say Andy, 40mm ride height is a negative for many, but as far as I understand it, Monoposto have no choice with regard to that. My shakedown test last month was at the car's designed ride height (~25mm) and my next test probably will be too, because I want to get back up to speed and get used to the car with a known and proven setup before I start fiddling with it; 'change one thing at a time' - a lesson learnt through bitter experience!
Re: Engine Regulations
I also agree that it makes sense for Formula Renault to be in Monoposto but I think there might be another way of doing it.
From this year we have split the two existing 2 litre classes into three - we had Mono 2000 and Classic, now we have F3, 2000 and Classic. The end result, so far, is that both 2000 and Classic are weak with few cars entered in either.
I would run Formula Renaults in a Mono 2000 class, together with older Dallaras (currently newest allowed in this class are 95/96 model)
Classic then keeps the older cars like the RT3 and my Anson and the FVL cars. Then a decision needs to be made where the US FF2000 chassis go - whether to put them in with Classic, as before, or in the Mono 2000 class.
At the end of the day, we already have the class structure to give a home to Formula Renaults where they can be competitive in their own class. And if this would prove to be a big class, they will end up with the grid split that allows them to be racing for outright wins as well.
From this year we have split the two existing 2 litre classes into three - we had Mono 2000 and Classic, now we have F3, 2000 and Classic. The end result, so far, is that both 2000 and Classic are weak with few cars entered in either.
I would run Formula Renaults in a Mono 2000 class, together with older Dallaras (currently newest allowed in this class are 95/96 model)
Classic then keeps the older cars like the RT3 and my Anson and the FVL cars. Then a decision needs to be made where the US FF2000 chassis go - whether to put them in with Classic, as before, or in the Mono 2000 class.
At the end of the day, we already have the class structure to give a home to Formula Renaults where they can be competitive in their own class. And if this would prove to be a big class, they will end up with the grid split that allows them to be racing for outright wins as well.
Peter Venn
#6
#6
-
Redracer77
- Flag waver
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:57 am
- Contact:
Re: Engine Regulations
Makes a lot of sense Peter.
Still no word from the club as to why they dont want them in. It would be nice for a member of the board to explain the reasons? Or if they can't stand up to the drivers wanting to race then let them in and build the class...
Over to you Mono?
Still no word from the club as to why they dont want them in. It would be nice for a member of the board to explain the reasons? Or if they can't stand up to the drivers wanting to race then let them in and build the class...
Over to you Mono?
Chris Hodgen
Dallara 304
No 70
Dallara 304
No 70
Re: Engine Regulations
I don't understand the reason for the FR ban as like most people I tend to agree that was what Mono club was all about. As for the FF 2000 in Classic, that was tried and is the reason there are so few classics now. There is no competition for classics with FF2000 as the last three championships (?) have shown.
Obviously I am a little bias having a Classic 2000, but speaking for the others we feel we have a chance now that the FF2000's have moved. Not sure how to structure a new class for the FR but I think we are missing a trick if we ban them.
Obviously I am a little bias having a Classic 2000, but speaking for the others we feel we have a chance now that the FF2000's have moved. Not sure how to structure a new class for the FR but I think we are missing a trick if we ban them.
Peter Whitmore
Car # 4
2000 Classic
Car # 4
2000 Classic
Re: Engine Regulations
This thread is being watched with interest by a number of the board members. You comments and suggestions are being noted.
There is an open invitation to any member to join us at a board meeting and discuss any relevant topic. We only ask that this is pre arranged and your proposals or questions are submitted to the secretary in writing before hand so they can be shared with the whole board. This gives us the opportunity to create a full and reasoned response to the member.
There is also the open forum at the end of each AGM, this is of course open to any current member and no pre booking or preparation required.
Of course if any of you wishes to join the board as a working member, we would love to hear from you and what you believe you can offer the club.
Russ Giles
There is an open invitation to any member to join us at a board meeting and discuss any relevant topic. We only ask that this is pre arranged and your proposals or questions are submitted to the secretary in writing before hand so they can be shared with the whole board. This gives us the opportunity to create a full and reasoned response to the member.
There is also the open forum at the end of each AGM, this is of course open to any current member and no pre booking or preparation required.
Of course if any of you wishes to join the board as a working member, we would love to hear from you and what you believe you can offer the club.
Russ Giles
Re: Engine Regulations
Please can you all note, your real name needs to be in your handle or signature.
Forum members who do not comply are likely to face removal of their profile
please see Tony's post here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2142&p=6943#p6943
Thanks
Russ Giles
Forum members who do not comply are likely to face removal of their profile
please see Tony's post here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2142&p=6943#p6943
Thanks
Russ Giles
-
Redracer77
- Flag waver
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:57 am
- Contact:
Re: Engine Regulations
I am Chris Hodgen Mono F3 - will work out how to change my profile name in the morning - seems 95 percent of people don't use their name?
Thanks for the reply, but it still doesn't answer the question as to why the board thinks it is a good idea to ban Formula Renault cars? It surely can't be a difficult question to answer? Is there a hidden agenda that the club don't want to disclose? as the reason the regs can't be policed doesn't stack up in my opinion. Please can you let me know when the next board meeting is?
Thanks for the reply, but it still doesn't answer the question as to why the board thinks it is a good idea to ban Formula Renault cars? It surely can't be a difficult question to answer? Is there a hidden agenda that the club don't want to disclose? as the reason the regs can't be policed doesn't stack up in my opinion. Please can you let me know when the next board meeting is?
Chris Hodgen
Dallara 304
No 70
Dallara 304
No 70
Re: Engine Regulations
Peter,omsracer wrote:I don't understand the reason for the FR ban as like most people I tend to agree that was what Mono club was all about. As for the FF 2000 in Classic, that was tried and is the reason there are so few classics now. There is no competition for classics with FF2000 as the last three championships (?) have shown.
Obviously I am a little bias having a Classic 2000, but speaking for the others we feel we have a chance now that the FF2000's have moved. Not sure how to structure a new class for the FR but I think we are missing a trick if we ban them.
I don't agree with you on the relative competitiveness of Classic and FF2000 - my Anson is still competitive with the FF2000s, as is Jim with his RT3, as is Robin Dawe with his FVL - none of us has competed in a full season in classic in the last few seasons and the championship has been won by an FF2000 but all three of us scrapped with Bryn Tootel last season and were competitive.
Peter Venn
#6
#6
-
Redracer77
- Flag waver
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:57 am
- Contact:
Re: Engine Regulations
It now seems a number of posts from pro Renault people have now been deleted from the forum.
Can we arrange an informal discussion about 2017 on Friday night at Brands?
Can we arrange an informal discussion about 2017 on Friday night at Brands?
Chris Hodgen
Dallara 304
No 70
Dallara 304
No 70
Re: Engine Regulations
Peter,
I was referring to us mere 'mortals' that turn up race meeting after race meeting, not you extremely experienced 'superstars'.
It has been noticeable and from a personal point of view a much more pleasurable experience to be racing in the Classic class with like spec cars and we have all enjoyed the experience brought about by close class racing. The FVL's and my brother in laws 923 and my 913 have enjoyed some very close and enjoyable battles this year.
That is not say i wouldn't welcome both you and Jim back to racing with us again. Its always good to race against the 'best' in class. Robin is with us again this week at Brands so that will give us all something to aim at.
Regards
Peter
I was referring to us mere 'mortals' that turn up race meeting after race meeting, not you extremely experienced 'superstars'.
It has been noticeable and from a personal point of view a much more pleasurable experience to be racing in the Classic class with like spec cars and we have all enjoyed the experience brought about by close class racing. The FVL's and my brother in laws 923 and my 913 have enjoyed some very close and enjoyable battles this year.
That is not say i wouldn't welcome both you and Jim back to racing with us again. Its always good to race against the 'best' in class. Robin is with us again this week at Brands so that will give us all something to aim at.
Regards
Peter
Peter Whitmore
Car # 4
2000 Classic
Car # 4
2000 Classic
Re: Engine Regulations
This banning of certain cars seems to be rather a drastic measure for the "friendly" Mono club. They've alway accomodated different types of formula. Ive never heard of the mono club ever banning anything.. Glad they didnt ban the Dallara busa because they went a bit fast!
Jeremy Timms (mono racer)
Jeremy Timms (mono racer)
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stevenconnor
- Recovery
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:04 am
Re: Engine Regulations
Without commenting on the underlying thoughts being expressed & discussed here.
There have been alleged past issues reported in this thread. I will just supply some links for people to review the established facts.
The Formula Renaults in question were discussed in detail in 2011 http://startline.org.uk/slol55/fr/fr.htm
There was an incident involving 3 cars (one in Mono 2000, one in Mono 1800 and one in Mono 1600) disqualified at a Mono meeting in 2011
This is the StartLine report http://startline.org.uk/slol%2060/oulton/oulton.htm The Mono 2000 (Formula Renault ) driver was also 'fined' championship points. See 2011 Championship points table http://www.monoposto.co.uk/results/2011 ... ip-tables/
From 2015, here is an analysis of the laptimes at Spa.
One team raised concerns with the Sporting Services Manager about the 111 car of Shane Kelly, possibly running without a restrictor on the Saturday. The team were approached and categorically denied the claim, offering to allow unofficial inspections of the restrictor at any time.
Various eligibility checks were carried out during 2015 and these were reported to members by email 14 September 2015 07:15 (extract below) The number 111 Formula Renault was checked for the restrictor by our MSA eligibility scrutineer in parc ferme at Snetterton - the check is easy and straightforward.
Eligibility checks in 2015:
To date:
1 x Formula Renault 16v checked for air restrictor. OK
10 x Mono 2000 engines checked via camera to ensure ‘standard’ cylinder head ports. All OK
Top 3 runners in Mono 2000 race fuel sampled and sent to the MSA for testing. All OK
All 1800 Zetec (in original FFZetec injection spec) engines checked for air restrictor at Castle Combe. One car found to have no restrictor fitted. Car excluded from race one but allowed to race in race 2 by transferring to ‘Invitation class’ (not currently an option in the main Mono championship) after it was recognised the driver had bought the car this year in good faith and was unaware of the absence of the restrictor (and didn’t have one to fit in on the day)… but this is not an excuse that prevents exclusion by the Clerk of Course from the first race.
Further checks will be carried out at the discretion of our MSA eligibility scrutineer.
Subsequently, two front running engines ( Vauxhall and Toyota) in the then Mono 2000 class were sealed at the final round of the year, later stripped & confirmed to have been Monoposto legal in the configuration as they raced in that final round on that day.
Hope this helps
Steven Connor
Sporting Services Manager
Monoposto Racing Club
07956591513
http://www.monoposto.co.uk
http://www.facebook.com/Monopostoracing
There have been alleged past issues reported in this thread. I will just supply some links for people to review the established facts.
The Formula Renaults in question were discussed in detail in 2011 http://startline.org.uk/slol55/fr/fr.htm
There was an incident involving 3 cars (one in Mono 2000, one in Mono 1800 and one in Mono 1600) disqualified at a Mono meeting in 2011
This is the StartLine report http://startline.org.uk/slol%2060/oulton/oulton.htm The Mono 2000 (Formula Renault ) driver was also 'fined' championship points. See 2011 Championship points table http://www.monoposto.co.uk/results/2011 ... ip-tables/
From 2015, here is an analysis of the laptimes at Spa.
One team raised concerns with the Sporting Services Manager about the 111 car of Shane Kelly, possibly running without a restrictor on the Saturday. The team were approached and categorically denied the claim, offering to allow unofficial inspections of the restrictor at any time.
Various eligibility checks were carried out during 2015 and these were reported to members by email 14 September 2015 07:15 (extract below) The number 111 Formula Renault was checked for the restrictor by our MSA eligibility scrutineer in parc ferme at Snetterton - the check is easy and straightforward.
Eligibility checks in 2015:
To date:
1 x Formula Renault 16v checked for air restrictor. OK
10 x Mono 2000 engines checked via camera to ensure ‘standard’ cylinder head ports. All OK
Top 3 runners in Mono 2000 race fuel sampled and sent to the MSA for testing. All OK
All 1800 Zetec (in original FFZetec injection spec) engines checked for air restrictor at Castle Combe. One car found to have no restrictor fitted. Car excluded from race one but allowed to race in race 2 by transferring to ‘Invitation class’ (not currently an option in the main Mono championship) after it was recognised the driver had bought the car this year in good faith and was unaware of the absence of the restrictor (and didn’t have one to fit in on the day)… but this is not an excuse that prevents exclusion by the Clerk of Course from the first race.
Further checks will be carried out at the discretion of our MSA eligibility scrutineer.
Subsequently, two front running engines ( Vauxhall and Toyota) in the then Mono 2000 class were sealed at the final round of the year, later stripped & confirmed to have been Monoposto legal in the configuration as they raced in that final round on that day.
Hope this helps
Steven Connor
Sporting Services Manager
Monoposto Racing Club
07956591513
http://www.monoposto.co.uk
http://www.facebook.com/Monopostoracing
Re: Engine Regulations
As an aside, anyone care to give some ball park figures for the different Mono F3, Mono 2000, Mono 2000 Classic and BARC F Renault engines?
Andy Yeomans - former Mono 1800 and 2000 racer (!?). Now CSCC and aspiring Clubmans racer.
Re: Engine Regulations
Lets hope that James can get some positive responses to the questions he is going to bring up with the board.
I have been very supportive of the club over the past 6 years and in my opinion the board has lost sight of the fact that the club is run for its members, who are amateurs, who race for enjoyment, with no financial reward.
We are club racers and all should be welcome.
I have been very supportive of the club over the past 6 years and in my opinion the board has lost sight of the fact that the club is run for its members, who are amateurs, who race for enjoyment, with no financial reward.
We are club racers and all should be welcome.