Who can use out of date seat belts?

[samier]

Mine expires in a few weeks, are there any championships or series that can make use of them? If so I may just try and get rid of them of them on ebay...

[tristancliffe]

I think some of the banger racing community are happy to make use of 'out-of-date' harnesses, but that was a while ago. Since then they might have regulations stopping them.

Track day frequenters might be able to make use of them too (although they won't be road legal).

[Nick Harrison]

I like most was in the belief that MSA rules state that you have to have 'in date' belts. This thread propmpted me to check as I thought it did not apply in Sprinting and Hillclimbing and would recommend that Samier put an add on Uphill racers.

On checking the 2009 Blue Book I cannot find that it is a regulation even for racing. Is this just another myth like fire bottles designed to get us to spend money by the manufacturers?

C (c) 48 says that it is only on International Events that belts have to carry an FIA label.

Then in the racing specific section G 125 says 'should' not 'must' when it refers to FIA spec belts.

I cannot find any reference to non FIA belts having to be dated.

Have I missed something? Please correct me.

BTW Tristan if you go on the SPA site
http://www.spa-uk.co.uk/news/article/?objid=30
it clearly says that it is MSA regulations that bottles have to be serviced every two years and that they will not service other manufacturers bottles nor those which have gone out of date. You and I know after our email exchanges this is just not the case and only another money making idea.

[tristancliffe]

I like most was in the belief that MSA rules state that you have to have 'in date' belts. This thread propmpted me to check as I thought it did not apply in Sprinting and Hillclimbing and would recommend that Samier put an add on Uphill racers.

On checking the 2009 Blue Book I cannot find that it is a regulation even for racing. Is this just another myth like fire bottles designed to get us to spend money by the manufacturers?

C (c) 48 says that it is only on International Events that belts have to carry an FIA label.

Then in the racing specific section G 125 says 'should' not 'must' when it refers to FIA spec belts.

I cannot find any reference to non FIA belts having to be dated.

Have I missed something? Please correct me.

I'll have a look tonight now you've said that. Funny how things we take as fact (e.g. seatbelt dates) aren't always as we thought.

BTW Tristan if you go on the SPA site
http://www.spa-uk.co.uk/news/article/?objid=30
it clearly says that it is MSA regulations that bottles have to be serviced every two years and that they will not service other manufacturers bottles nor those which have gone out of date. You and I know after our email exchanges this is just not the case and only another money making idea.

Yes, it's nice to know that our extinguisher is legal for Mono, and could be made legal for events abroad by paying someone other than SPA to put a sticker on it.

It's the same with the new rain light regs - rather than defining a brightness or intensity lower limit that would stop rubbish rainlights from being sold (e.g. the one on our Reynard ), they just say it has to be MSA Approved. Yet the same rubbish ones can be bought with MSA approval, just at a higher cost. It hasn't actually improved safety in the slightest, and one would assume that would have been the original incentive?

[Dermot Healy]

The Blue Book (...at least in 2008) seems to use the words 'should' rather than 'must' indiscriminately in the technical section. Where it is a recommendation, rather than a requirement the phrase "it is recommended that" is adopted. The dating issue is covered by the phrasing 'should wear currently homologated...bla bla bla'

There is a thriving market in 'out of date' seat belts & they will sell for £25-£35 on eBay....and go to the most surprising places. Old belts from monoposto cars have gone to Latvia, the West Indies, Estonia & Mexico .....as well as stranger and less developed areas such as Wales and South Yorkshire

[schomosport]

(G) Car racing.
125. Currently FIA homologated safety harness should be fitted and worn at all times by the Driver during training, practice and competition unless the vehicle was constructed in periods A to E.

I would agree that to make it a mandatory regulation 'should' needs to be replaced by 'shall'. By extension if it is out of date then it is no longer homologated.

Scrutineers have delighted me all year in reminding that I will need to replace the harness for 2009 - they are evidently interpreting the requirement and date as mandatory.

No I don't agree with the blanket 5 yearly replacemement interval although I do replace without hesitation after a big shunt. Nutted the steering wheel in a Golf once - shoulder straps were secured to the rear seat belt pick-ups in tradditional hatchback fashion and stretched somewhat when used in anger.

If beyond Ebaying used belts make good engine lift harnesses!

(ArtyB - thanks for the Pi leads)

[phuston]

My brother keeps in touch with club motor racing matters in the Antipodes and when he visited this weekend the subject of seat belts same up because the Australians have published research that shows that there was no significant deterioration in the performance of seat belts of appreciable age. This reserch has been published at a time when one of the authorities (NZ I believe) have just introduced more stringent requirements.

Those familiar with the sentiments expressed on this topic on our Forum can imagine the furore that is occuring 'down under'.

If you consider the situation logically, the seatbelts in any convertible have been subject to far more sunlight, use, moisture etc than the belts of a race car and there is no evidence of deterioration. Additionally, there is also no evidence from the trackday industry that belts deteriorate over time.

I am with the majority view, the MSA is assisting the vendors of equipment to the sport maintain their profits.

Have you noticed, there never seems to be any competition on price between the various outlets?

[AndyY]

Seat belts used in race cars are essentially the same as those used in aircraft and yet the RAF, RN and Army have an inspection regime for cuts to webbing or contamination with oil etc but no mandatory replacement date. More MSA rubbish.

[schomosport]

MSA follows the FIA on safety - declared policy several times over if you read between the lines in their published works. Its a get-out-of-jail card for when it hits the fan - we were following recognised best practice (ergo if it is good enough for the FIA it's 'best practice').

Compulsory HANS devices, FIA 4l(?) extinguishers, etc. its not just 'if' but 'when'. Note Ireland has made HANS compulsory for all stage rallies: some of their competitors will be as impecunious as some of us. Whoops, next season's going to cost them another £1200 and understandably some are just going to walk away. Not to decry the merits (or otherwise) of HANS which are discussed in detail on another forum - but cheap it ain't.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic but I work for a US Company - absolutely paranoid about anything that might potentially lead to litigation in the event of an accident - so I recognise the signs........

[JohnMiller]

HANS cost nothing like £1,200 schomo - which is still less than the current price of a new head.

[tristancliffe]

Indeed not. The HANS device is now available in a 'club version' at a lower price (that I can't remember), and a new helmet with HANS posts is around £350. Still a lot of money, but when you next buy a new helmet I couldn't recommend HANS more - at the very least invest in a helmet with the posts fitted so you can upgrade easily in the future (which I suggest everyone does BEFORE it becomes mandatory).

It won't make you quicker. It won't necessarily help in every single accident. But it will not make an accident worse, does not cause accidents, and can only ever help you. And this discussion is a lot harder to hold when your head has fallen off!

I've been using HANS for 18 months (initially at the request of my Dad), and I wouldn't race without one except in exceptional circumstances (e.g. a period car that won't work with one). 100% worth the investment even though I've never (yet) needed to make use of it properly.

A little upgrade to the 'Vision' system (sliding tethers) is, I think, going to make it even better, because the one downside of HANS is reversing/manoeuvring visibility in the paddock/assembly areas.

[Nick Harrison]

Talking of 'dating ripoffs' some years ago we were thrown out of a British Sprint Championship round for not having an 'in date' fuel cell.

Being naïve we accepted it.

Can anyone point me to where that regulation is in the current Blue Book for MSA events?

[schomosport]

HANS cost nothing like £1,200 schomo - which is still less than the current price of a new head.

Context was stage rally, crew of two. Maybe it evens out cos they have twice the budget - hah hah!

I am aware of the lower priced HANS (£440) as I have been considering purchasing one for myself - unfortunately I don't think the 30 degree one recommended for single seaters (£680) has got to that price point yet.

Of course HANS, helmets, fire suits, harnessess are all reactive safety measures in that they endeavour to mitigate the results of an accident.

A true safety oriented approach would insist on better steps to reduce the likelihood of accidents in the first instance:
Better driver and marshall training
Don't mix grids with disparate car and driver speeds and weights
Compulsory inspection and certification of cars on a periodic basis by appropriately qualified personnel.
Use aircraft spec bolts throughout. How many fastener related suspension failures have we had in Mono 2000 this year?
These are quick cars, better not let out anyone who hasn't made it to Nat A
Better not let anyone out who can't get round in 107% time of 3rd fastest qualifier (Blue book, possibly historic, havn't checked. That will decimate clubmen grids for sure.
Ban overtaking except down the straights
Ban overtaking all together (its called sprinting)
Ban motorsport all together

Where do you want to stop?

Yes I could find the money for a HANS etc. and amortised over 5 seasons it isn't even that much - but thats several hundred quid I can't also spend on motorsport in 2009.

I don't think a lot of people have yet woken up to the fact that 2009 is going to be a bitch of a year for running financially viable race meetings. A significant number of 2008 competitors are going to get fired or their businesses are going to go under or are not going to race because they have more important things they need to spend money on. Imposing further financial burdens be it in the name of safety, increased race entry fees or whatever is not goingto cut it, competitors are walking away.

[Dermot Healy]

£1,200 - which is still less than the current price of a new head.

No John....I doubt if most of the heads fitted to Monoposto competitors are really worth as much as £1200.....you don't have to look too closely to see that many have come from eBay @ 99p
.........and i can think of at least one former competitor whose behaviour always suggested he acquired the front facing portion of his head(s) as part of a 'two for the price of one' offer.

[jimblockley]

where is the evidence for hans

there were thousands of accidents before it was introduced.

Dont remember any heads falling off.

in fact my accident at Spa if my head had not been able to be pushed down and side ways into the cut out in the side of the tub,i might have been injured.

every accident is different.

head on collisions with barriers or dead stop accident hans may probably avoid whiplash.